Bishop Joseph Strickland of Tyler, Texas joins the podcast to discuss the role of a bishop, including what the laity should do when frustrated with their bishop, the problems of the USCCB, how to revitalize a parish, and the confusion caused by Pope Francis.
Links:
• Bishop Strickland website
• St. Philip Institute of Catechesis and Evangelization
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Transcript:
Eric Sammons:
What does it mean to be a Catholic Bishop? We’re going to look at that on today’s crisis point.
Hello, I’m Eric Sammons, your host, and the editor-in-chief of Crisis Magazine. I want to dive right into this one, so just remind everybody to subscribe to the channel, follow some social media and donate if you can. Okay, let’s get started.
Our guest today is Bishop Joseph Strickland. He is the Bishop of the Diocese of Tyler, Texas. He was ordained a priest in 1985 and was named the fourth Bishop of Tyler in 2012 by Pope Benedict XVI. He also founded the St. Philip Institute of Catechesis and Evangelization to help the Diocese of Tyler to be a teaching diocese. Welcome to the program, your excellency.
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Thanks, Eric. Good to be here.
Eric Sammons:
Yeah, let’s go get a little bit about your background. I assume you grew up Catholic and how did you decide to become a priest? What was your vocation story?
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Well, I did grow up in a very Catholic family in rural East Texas. I grew up in a little town called Atlanta, Texas, and we were one of the few Catholic families. But, the way I was raised being Catholic was the best thing we had. I think that certainly influenced my choice too. I remember I entered the seminary at 18, right out of high school. My main attitude was I wanted to check it out. I knew it was a question that I wanted to consider. At 18 and especially looking back, I didn’t know what I was getting into really. I mean, I was a cradle Catholic and always loved the church. The family was always very committed. But, I really grew into really, I feel blessed that so early in life, I found the path that God had for me. I went in the seminary at 18, was there at the same seminary for eight years, and I was ordained in 1985.
Eric Sammons:
Now, is that part of the Diocese of Tyler that you were seminarian?
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Diocese of Tyler didn’t exist. I was part of the Diocese of Dallas. This whole part of Northeast, Texas, which is now part of it is the Diocese of Tyler. It was all Diocese of Dallas, all the way from Louisiana over to Dallas and beyond. No, I was ordained for the Diocese of Dallas and then a year and a half later, the Diocese of Tyler was created.
Eric Sammons:
I guess they just then moved some priests to Tyler and some stay in Dallas, is that how that worked?
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Yeah. We actually had, we had the option. But, since I was from the area that became the Diocese of Tyler, I just stayed. We had one priest that actually went back to Dallas. There were only 35 priests when we started, so it was very small.
Eric Sammons:
It seems uncommon, correct me if I’m wrong, it seems uncommon though for bishops to come from the actual diocese in which they’re in charge of. A lot of the diocese I’ve lived in, the bishop actually wasn’t from the area, he came from somewhere else. Is that true? Is that uncommon?
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
It is uncommon. It’s not unheard of, but it isn’t the norm. Very often a bishop maybe in Texas and he’s sent out to California, or something like that. I feel it brings its challenges, but I think ultimately it’s a blessing to have basically be bishop. I have two sisters that still live in this area. It’s a blessing to be bishop where I grew up, where I was a young priest. All of my life has been within 100 miles of where I grew up. It is an interesting, it’s not totally unusual, but it’s certainly not the norm.
Eric Sammons:
Yeah, I could see both the positive and negative. It’s obviously your home, but then again, everybody knows you.
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Yeah. We joke that people are always … I mean, I’ve been bishop nine years now. Very often people that I’ve known for my whole priesthood will still say, “Oh, Father Joe, I mean, I mean, bishop.” It’s like, “Don’t worry, I’m still a priest.”
Eric Sammons:
Right, exactly. Now, so you were named bishop in 2012 by Pope Benedict. What was that like? I mean, what’s that like for a priest to get that call? I assume it’s surreal for somebody who calls you to ask you to become bishop. What’s that like to get that call? It’s got to be just real.
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Well, it is life changing, as you can imagine. It was actually Archbishop Vigano was the nuncio when I was called. It was on September 14th, 2012 at about 10:30 in the morning. It’s interesting, you can talk to, when bishops get together, or anytime you talk to a bishop, ask him about the phone call and they all have different stories. I was here because I was administrator of the diocese along with the apostolic administrator was the former Bishop. But, I was the priest administrator more or less. I was in an office, the other side of this building, the same building I’m sitting in right now. I was the, like I said, the delegate of the administrator. I was there in my office when I got the phone call. It was funny because our business manager referred the phone. He got the call originally in the office and he said, “There’s somebody who needs to talk to you who has an Italian accent.” That’s how the call was introduced to me, but that was Archbishop Vigano.
Eric Sammons:
Okay, wow. Is it true that you can accept, or you can turn it down if you’re asked?
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Yes. I mean, I really can’t imagine thinking back, I don’t know how much I was even thinking at that point. But, I can’t imagine saying no. But certainly, I mean, you’re not forced to do it. There certainly are probably times when the priest that’s being called may have a valid reason of health, or other circumstances where they would just explain that they really can’t do this. It’s all kept pretty secret. You’re told when you get the call that it’s under Pontifical secret until a certain announcement date, which for me was two weeks later. So, because it’s secret, it’s hard to really know how many say no, but I’m sure some do for various reasons.
Eric Sammons:
Right. That must have been nerve-wracking two weeks where you can’t tell anybody, but you know about it.
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
It was interesting, believe me.
Eric Sammons:
Right. Now, how would you describe the job? I know it’s not really a job of a bishop, but how would you describe the job of being a bishop? What’s your duties?
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Well, people asked me early on what was the biggest change, especially since I’ve been a priest right here in the same town. The biggest change was the calendar. I mean, I always thought I was busy as a priest, but it’s just, as you can imagine, I mean, my work expanded from one parish to 33 counties and 60 plus parishes. It’s a very busy life. I think because of that, it makes it a challenge to handle, because ultimately we’re shepherds. We are successors of the apostles. One of the promises we make is to guard the Deposit of Faith and I take that very seriously. Really what, as you say, it’s even a little strange for me to call it a job. It’s more a life, definitely a vocation.
But, it’s spiritual. It’s about guiding people in the truth of Jesus Christ. But, because the church is in the world and you’ve got to basically run a multimillion dollar business. You have a lot of employees, the priest and the people in the Chantry staff. You own a lot of property. It really amazes me, Eric, sometimes I don’t think of it in those terms. We’re a relatively small diocese, but there are certainly dioceses much larger and much smaller than us. We’re about 120,000 Catholics. But marketing people, 33 counties. Imagine an entity that has 68 locations scattered across 33 counties. That’s a significant marketing entity. I mean, if you’re trying to sell paper goods to a corporation or to some business, you got 68 locations, “Oh, we want your business.”
It’s been interesting to me because I don’t think of us in those terms. But, from the marketing side a lot of people say, “Oh, that’s a major account for us,” is to have the account for the diocese, because a lot of it’s not centralized. But, there are things like insurance. I mean, that’s a lot of people and a lot of land to insure. Insurance companies bid on it, I mean they’re interested. There’s that whole business side. Thankfully, in a relatively small diocese, that doesn’t totally consume me, but it easily could. I really, to be men of prayer, to be men focused on the teaching of the faith, that’s really what we’re here for. But, there are a lot of responsibility and it’s not just in the 21st century. But, if you read about bishops from the earliest days of the church, and lot of times they were dealing with much more vast territory.
I mean, at one time all of Texas was one diocese and beyond. They didn’t have the transportation that we have. Just recently, in one of our parish celebrations, I rode horses as a kid growing up and I actually to horse during this celebration and the people were, “Oh, bishop rode a horse.” I reminded them that’s how they used to get around. I mean, some of the old pictures have the bishops and the priest traveling on horseback, because here in Texas, for sure, that’s how you got around. A large territory cover and I have to say that it takes constant effort to keep focused on the spiritual side, the teaching side, the shepherding of God’s people. Because you can have all your time taken up with the more of the business and the bureaucracy aspect of it, because that’s all there too.
Eric Sammons:
Yeah, how do you practical … I actually worked in a diocese for five years directly for a bishop and I saw how busy he was, how many demands he had on his time. Constant, just, I mean, he would schedule me in for a time. I’d meet with him and it had to be during, I had to get it all done in that 15 minutes, whatever he gave me, because he had somebody else very important who he had to meet with 15 minutes later. How do you practically though balance that? Because you are the CEO of a corporation, to use a crass term. But, that really is simply what you are. Yet, you’re the successor to the apostles, a successor to the apostles. How do you practically balance that you know, “Okay, I have to meet the insurance company, but I also have all these thousands of souls that are under my care.” How do you practically balance that day to day?
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Well, I’m still learning, I’ll put it that way. One of the great things is to have good people around you taking care of a lot of the highest level administrative stuff. Certainly, the way the church is structured, I have to make the final decision about what insurance company to go with. But, to have good advisors and people spending their time looking at the details, that’s what you have to rely on. Otherwise, you couldn’t survive. I mean, it’s just too much for one. And it’s the same thing, really, in a large corporation. Whatever their product is, they have to have a good administrative staff. They have to have good people around them, or you can’t make the product and certainly in the church, you can’t do the main work of the church, which is teaching the faith and attracting people to Jesus Christ. You can’t do that if you don’t have good people doing a lot of the logistic stuff.
I’m blessed with here in a relatively small diocese. We don’t have a huge staff, but they’re busy. Because really the way it works, it’s like even though whatever the size of the business, there’s certain things that you have to take care of. You’ve got HR issues. You’ve got insurance issues. You’ve got all the same things. It may not be as large in numbers, but you’ve got to deal with the same basic and in business. I mean buildings, I don’t even like to think about how many millions of dollars I’m responsible for in the real estate that we have. Some very expensive buildings and you’ve got to maintain those. Certainly, I’ve got great priests that are doing it on the more local level. But ultimately like for us, a contract to build a church has to be signed by me. I’m the bottom line and that’s the way it works for most bishops.
Eric Sammons:
Now, you put an emphasis, you founded the St. Philip Institute for Catechesis and Evangelization, and you’ve put an emphasis on being what you call a teaching diocese. What exactly do you mean by that, that you’re a teaching diocese and how does that differ from maybe just regular? How’s that different? What do you mean by that, I guess what I’m asking?
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Well, what I meant by that in it was interesting, the evolution of all of it. In probably about 2016, so we’re talking about six years ago, I just saw that we really needed … I grew up here. I’m 63 years old. I grew up in the era when the church wasn’t teaching well. I mean, I think we just have to all acknowledge that. Catechesis didn’t work well in the time that I grew up. What I learned about the Catholic family, with the Catholic family that I mentioned, I learned from home, primarily. What I learned from home is what made me even think about going to the seminary at 18. In growing up, most of the young people, there weren’t many Catholic people I grew up with. But, the young people that I did grow up with, very few of them are still Catholic.
I’ve always said, if you know what the Catholic faith is, the treasure of the fullness of the message of Jesus Christ, you’re not going to leave it no matter how frustrating it is. No matter how disappointed you are with the ministers or how broken, and certainly there’s a lot of brokenness in the church, there always has been. But, so that’s why I said, we’ve got to focus on really teaching people what this treasure is. I mean, some of the best Catholics in our area, and really I think across the church now, are adult converts who studied their way into the church.
I’m sure Eric, you deal with those people all the time with Crisis Magazine, that these are people like Scott Hahn is the classic of somebody that wasn’t Catholic and began to study themselves into it. Those people, that’s what I mean by teaching diocese, to teach people what we really have so that they would die rather than leave the church, no matter how disappointing the structure, or the ministers, or any aspect of the church is. It’s the body of Christ. I mean, and people have died in through the centuries and even into our own time where they know the truth, they are willing to die for it. That’s what I mean by being a teaching diocese, that we focus on sharing the truth that really configures people to Christ.
Eric Sammons:
One of the frustrations I had when I worked in parish life and also in diocese is a lot of times, there’s new programs, lots of programs. But, it just didn’t seem like they really did anything. It was just another group who comes, “Hey, we’re going to do this program. It’s going to revitalize the parish.” And really, it was just more meetings where the exact same people came. How do you break that cycle from just another program to actually reaching the person in the pure, even just as importantly, the person who’s not coming to mass anymore, or never did. How do you break through that and reach directly to them at the parish level?
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Well, I think that’s the challenge we all face and recent popes in my lifetime, including now Pope Francis, the popes rightly emphasize the personal relationship with Jesus Christ. A program can help sometimes get that started, but relationship is not done by programs. You have to, I guess the analogy that I would use it’s like for yourself. I don’t know what you studied in school, but something made you desire to learn more about that subject and to major in college on a certain subject. I think it’s the same thing. You’ve got to make some personal investment in growing, in this situation, in your relationship with Jesus Christ, with the person of Jesus Christ. Programs fall short at that, because for one thing, they don’t last. Even the greatest program, it may be six weeks of whatever, or even half a year of whatever. But, by their nature, I mean, you’re not just in a program forever.
They have a finite dimension to them that what tends to happen in just the human reality, that program may have really ignited some things, but it doesn’t get the spark of, I want to know Jesus Christ more deeply in my life. If it doesn’t ignite that, then it doesn’t really get it done. Programs are useful, but I would say only as a accessory that helps you to foster your relationship with Christ. I think the popes of my lifetime have emphasized, we’ve got to encourage people and that’s what the disciples had. They didn’t have a program. They walked around with Jesus. He taught them. He healed people. He did amazing things. He said amazing things. He spoke with authority. It’s Jesus Christ that we have to put people in touch with and programs can be useful, but if that’s all you’re doing, it’s just obviously it’s not the model that brings about the greatest evangelization in Catechesis.
Eric Sammons:
Right. I think another frustration that you can have with this is that you can do this work, but if parish life isn’t something that really fosters discipleship, then it almost seems like it’s not going to bear lasting fruit. I think one of the things, like I know the USCCB, there’s the big Eucharistic campaign that’s beginning. There’s going to be, I think a two or three year campaign to foster a deeper reverence for the Eucharist, a greater belief. I think we all know that far too few Catholics believe in the real presence. But, the Christ, and in fact, I’m running an article at Crisis here probably in a few days next week. One of the things, the concerns, at least people I talk to is you have this great Eucharistic Congress, maybe in a couple years, you have this big program to do this and to foster it. But, the actual life in the parish doesn’t foster Eucharistic reverence.
What can be done at the parish level, and specifically for belief in the real presence, because I would argue to be quite honest, I think a big reason that people, Catholics don’t believe in the real presence is because the parishes don’t act like it’s the real presence. They don’t act like it’s Jesus Christ. What can we do to really make the parishes a place of revitalization and Eucharistic reverence?
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Well, that’s a big question. I think it certainly depends on well-formed priests and really Eric, I would say in our present reality in this country and really throughout the world. That’s one reason to be a teaching diocese. People need the truth. The catechism, the word of God and the majestor or teachings of the church, wonderful teachings. I mean, I look to the catechism all the time and just one paragraph, if we really take the time to read it, really says some important things about who we are, who God is, how the world works. Addressing, really the essential questions of being human. There’s too much of a lack of focus on the truth, on the real message of Christ. There’s too much confusion and too many different voices. That’s really been happening for my lifetime.
I mean, since people point to the Second Vatican Council and I absolutely believe that the Second Vatican Council was inspired by the Holy Spirit. But, it has been in many ways, hijacked by certain interest groups, you might say. I mean, when I was a kid, I mean, Pope Paul VI wrote Humanae vitae and many of the men who were bishops of that time, rejected it and said, “This isn’t the truth.” That’s a problem and I think that’s really one of the issues that we face in the church and it comes down to the local level. The priest has to be the model of reverence and belief. Thankfully, I mean the younger priests that we have, and I see not just in our diocese but across the board, I think they’re well formed and they know the truth and they’re on fire to share the truth.
I mean, the two basic episodes, the tragedies of the abuse crisis in just after 2000, 2002, and then raising up again in 2018, thankfully men we have in the seminary are there because of that in many ways. To say, “There’s a problem. I love this church and I feel called to get in there and fight for the truth.” There’s a different attitude. Frankly, I’m 63 years old and a lot of the priests my age, are much more quiet about it. I mean, they may be very well committed personally, but frankly I was informed to really teach the truth with the clarity that the world needs today. I think a lot of the solution, and I think we’re beginning to see that at least in areas, is well-formed priests who love Christ and love his church going out and teaching the tough things. I mean, the teachings of morality, the teachings of all the things that are controversial in the world today, the church hasn’t changed her message of truth. The catechism still teaches us marriage is between a man and a woman for life, open to children.
We’ve got to really lovingly and joyfully share that truth. I’ll be the first to admit in my years as a parish priest, we weren’t strong enough. We didn’t have enough clarity. We need that, as people often say these days, clarity with charity. The greatest charity is to teach the truth. We’ve lost that real clear focus as a church. It’s like, “Oh, well, we need to listen to everyone.” Yes, we want to listen, but listen and then share truth. It’s not like, “Well, you decide what you want and I decide what I want, and somebody else decides a third thing.” And it’s all just relative. I mean, the relativism doesn’t fit with believing that simple bread and wine become the Lord of the universe. I mean, that’s not a relativistic truth that people can deal with. “Oh, for me it’s the body of Christ. For you, it’s just a little flat piece of bread.” That doesn’t work. We have to believe and we have to share that much more effectively.
Eric Sammons:
Now, I don’t think it would surprise you, this is not going to be something that comes as a surprise to you, is the fact that a lot of faithful Catholics are very, very frustrated with their bishops. I mean, I’m old enough too. I got the gray hairs too. I’m old enough to know that there’s been just years and years of being disappointed by bishops. I mean, frankly, obviously the big ones are the sex abuse scandal in 2002 that came out. Then the fact that 16 years later in 2018, it seemed like it hadn’t really been taken care of like people thought, with McCarrick and others.
But, even beyond that, just the fact that so few bishops are willing to do exactly what you just said, which is to speak clearly about the truth, be willing to say things like marriage is a man and woman and women can’t become men and things of that nature. So many of them frankly, just appear very wishy-washy to us lay Catholics. What would you say to us, the laity who are frustrated with that? Not necessarily what we can do, but the situation in the church today, how can we deal with this crisis that we have?
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Well, it may sound like a simplistic answer, but the first thing I would say very seriously, is pray for your bishop. He’s just a man. I’m just a man. We can all be influenced by a lot of things. But, pray for your bishop, that’s job one for all of us. I mean, if you look at the liturgy, the church builds that in. All the Eucharistic prayers, the Pope Francis and the local bishop has prayed for. I think we need to take that very seriously. It’s not just a courtesy, “Oh, well, we pray for the bishop.” He needs our prayer. I need prayer. I mean, I tell people that all the time. Certainly, it doesn’t stop there and it’s complicated Eric, because it’s not just in the Catholic church, but look at the presidency and how that is. Whatever your politics, the presidency has eroded as far as an esteemed respected office, where people say things about whoever the president is for my lifetime, since I remember the first election I voted in was for Gerald Ford and he didn’t win.
But, the respect for authority is part of it. Part of the reason for that lack of respect for authority, if you look at the political world or the church world, is because the authorities have not lived up to their responsibility. They’ve dropped the ball. I think humility on the part of myself as a bishop, to acknowledge when I do it wrong, to acknowledge that, to ask forgiveness and it’s got to be … I guess Eric, really in a lot of ways, I would go back to what we talked about with Christ. It’s about relationship. It’s a challenge for bishops in a huge archdiocese to have any real relationship with the people. But, I think that’s what we all need to strive for, is to be in touch with our people.
Because even in a small diocese, if I don’t choose to be out there, I can just operate with the small staff that I have and hear for them what the people are needing. I think the shepherds need to be with the sheep, just like Pope Francis has said. “We need to smell like the sheep.” And here in East Texas, I certainly have a lot to learn still, but I think I smell like the sheep. I think people, I have the concerns that other people have about what’s going on in our families, what’s going on in our churches, what’s going on in the world. I mean, it’s a challenge enough for me in a smaller diocese. It can feel impossible in a very large diocese. I would tell people, my advice is sincerely pray for your bishop. Support him when he’s doing things that say, “Yes, that’s the faith. Thank you bishop. Support him in those things and respectfully, speak up when he is not doing things.
I mean, you can have all kinds of different opinions about administration. But, I would say if you’re hearing things that are not core values, that you can go to the Catechesis and say, “Yep, my bishop said, what’s here.” The challenge needs to be there. It needs to be respectful. But, to say things that are not part of the Catholic faith, it does the bishop and the people a lot of harm, because that respect for their authority, which ultimately all authority in the church, really all in the world. But, very specifically in the church, all authority has been given to Christ and we all need to remember that. That’s why we need to respect authority ultimately, is because real authority is always going to be rooted in the truth and Christ is incarnate truth.
We’ve got to always be returning to that. I guess, I don’t claim to have the answers to the big question, Eric. But, I think it’s about relationship and it’s a responsibility on both sides. The lay Catholics need to know their faith and to be willing to speak up when they feel, when they hear the faith being denied. Going back to Humanae vitae, it’s probably easier to talk about things 60 years ago than right now. But, if the lay Catholics had really spoken up and said, “No, bishops, you aren’t supporting what we have,” … I mean, they’re the ones married. They’re the ones that are living what contraception is about. Frankly, a lot of them liked it, I’m sure. They said, “Ah, this is much easier.” A lot of times when it’s easier, it’s farther from the truth. The truth is challenging, but it sets us free.
I would say the best answer that I have is remembering it’s a relationship with responsibility on both sides. It’s easy to criticize the bishop and sometimes criticism is warranted. But also, the laity need to be very clear in learning their faith. When they really study the catechism and they’re hearing things from their priest or their bishop that are not according to the Deposit of Faith, they need to speak up. Both sides need to be engaged in the relationship.
Eric Sammons:
Another issue when it comes to bishops that I think a lot of lay people, are either frustrated or just don’t really understand, is the USCCB, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. I know a lot of Catholics and I will be honest, I’ll probably put myself in this camp, wonder what’s the purpose of it? It doesn’t seem to really, I mean, it doesn’t really have a theological structure to it in the sense that it’s not something founded by Christ, like the episcopacy is or the Papacy is, or the priesthood is. What would you say is the purpose of it and is it doing that purpose?
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Well, I’ll be honest, I have a lot of issues with, not just the USCCB, but any of the conferences. I mean, they were called for with the Second Vatican Council, certainly with a good purpose of collaborating and working together on issues. But, like so many, it’s a bureaucracy and it has just taken on a life of its own. I think where a lot of the confusion for the laity, even for priests and bishops, is as you said Eric, the USCCB is not a theological entity that can tell me as a bishop, “You have to teach this.” The church doesn’t operate that way. A conference of bishops is there to manage, really all aspects of what the diocese needs to do, but it’s not part of the teaching in the most direct way. Certainly when the conference of bishops, because everything gets voted on and it’s just a huge bureaucracy that is so far removed from the local diocese.
I think, I mean interestingly, the conference of bishops, I mean, it’s taken on different letters have been used. It was the War Council originally, but it’s just over 100 years old. That’s not very long in the life of a 2,000 year institution of the church. I think we’re still learning, what’s the best way for these conferences to operate. I really believe that too many times, the real essential elements of the bishop teaching and the bishop guiding in matters of the Deposit of Faith has been relegated to, “Well, the conference has to decide that.” Really, no. I mean the way the theological structure of the church is that for as long as I’m the bishop of Tyler, the 33 counties and what happens here is my responsibility and my right to regulate that, to teach the authentic faith. The USCCB really doesn’t have the authority to tell a bishop what to teach. I think there’s a lot of con on that part that it’s like, “Well, you got to ask the head office.” The head office is in heaven for us.
Eric Sammons:
Right. That actually brings me to something I wanted to ask you about. A while back, I think it was like a month or two ago, you tweeted a quote actually from an article at Crisis that got a lot of pushback. I mean, it became newsworthy and quote, it was actually from Michael Warren Davis wrote the article and it says, “The West needs to remember that our bishops do not derive their authority from the Pope. They’re not the Vatican’s regional managers. They’re successors to the apostles in their own right. They have their own teaching authority. They are the shepherds of their sheep.” Could you lay out what you feel is the relationship between, obviously there’s a relationship directly between you and Christ as a successor to the apostle. But, there’s also just as true, there’s a relationship between you and the Pope. Obviously, the Pope appointed you and the Pope is in a sense, your boss, obviously. Yet, it’s not exactly like you say, it’s not exactly a regional manager. You’re not a middle manager in the church either. How would you describe that relationship between you, your responsibilities and the Pope?
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Well, the main principle is that we’re all looking, we’re all disciples of Jesus Christ, ultimately. I mean, certainly there’s a very clear hierarchical structure and a responsibility structure. The Bishop of Rome, the Pope, has that responsibility and that authority to manage the church, to take care of making sure there are bishops in places around the world. But, I guess the best answer I have Eric, is where all of us from the Bishop of Rome, to the Bishop of Tyler, to the Archbishop of Mexico City, one of the largest archdiocese in the world, we’re all looking to Christ. He’s the authority. I think that when we remember that, then certainly we’re going to have different human ideas. But, we just have to keep … He is the touchstone, the cornerstone we have to all keep looking to. What does Christ teach us?
I mean, frankly, and I know that Pope Francis and other popes, and not as directly, but with what’s going on in Germany with Cardinals and the body of bishops. I just tweeted again, something that a bishop says that is not what Christ teaches. I know it’s a challenge for Pope Francis, it’s a challenge for all of us when we’re all supposed to be looking to Christ. Where do we look? We look to the scriptures. We look to the catechism. We look to the magisterial teachings of the church through the ages. We have a public revelation that is settled. It’s not evolving and changing. Certainly our deepening understanding is there, but it’s not evolving and changing all the time. To say, “Oh, well, we were wrong about what we’ve been teaching for 2,000 years. That’s just not what the church believes.
It’s interesting what I’ve pointed out and I think that, to me it’s helpful. I think actually in responding to some of the questions about that article, the catechism paragraph 66 talks about public revelation. Another way of saying that is the Deposit of Faith. Jesus Christ really came, and he really revealed in the perfect way, he revealed God to us as the God man. He’s the one we look to. That’s the Deposit of Faith or public revelation. Anything that comes along in later centuries, whether it’s in the third century or the 21st century, that has to be measured against public revelation. I think we’re hearing from the German bishops, that’s private revelation. That isn’t what the church teaches. If it’s not in line with the public revelation of the church, the church has many times said, “No, that is not to be embraced as a belief because it’s contrary to the public revelation, to the Deposit of Faith.”
I think that’s what we have to keep going back to. And again, truth is a person. Thank God we have Jesus Christ. That’s why God’s soul of the world, he sent his son. He didn’t send a book. He didn’t send a committee. He sent a person. He sent his son, Jesus of Nazareth. We’ve got to look to Jesus. He’s the face of truth. He’s a living face of truth. Going back to the Eucharist. He’s not some figure from 2,000 years ago. He lives in us and with us. He’s part of our lives and part of our world now. We desperately need to look to him, to the face of truth and ask ourselves, “Is this authentic to what Jesus said and what Jesus has said through the ages?”
Eric Sammons:
Amen. Now, I don’t mean to bring up all the frustrations of lay Catholics, but they don’t often get to hear from a bishop like this, so I want to do this. There are a lot of faithful Catholics that are frankly, very frustrated with Pope Francis. They’re confused, at times, by what he’s saying. They’re angry. They don’t know, for example, what the teaching is on the church on communion for divorce and remarried, the teaching on the death penalty, it seems to have changed. We know that’s not possible.
Aside from just the specific issues like that, there’s just a lot of confusion that as a lay Catholic, I don’t want to disagree with the Pope ever, because he’s the Pope. Yet at the same time, from my understanding of it, he seems to be contradicting at times, or at least making confusing what the teaching of the church is, compared to past teaching. What advice do you give to a lay Catholic who’s trying to figure, just trying to live a good Catholic life, but it seems like his own Holy Father is causing him problems in his own faith journey. What would you say to that Catholic?
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Well, I understand the question, Eric, because it gets asked to me by the sheep here, here in Tyler. Again, my answer is first to pray for the Holy Father. I can’t imagine being the Bishop of Rome and the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church universal, in 2022, or in the time that Pope Francis or Pope Benedict. I mean, in our modern world, the challenge of being the Pope, Bishop of Rome, is tremendous. I think there are a lot of, analogously, a lot of issues that we have to be aware of. First, we pray for the Pope and we have to be aware that as one man, he’s influenced by a lot of bureaucracy. I mean the Vatican, I mean, people, you probably know the story about red tape. People, “Oh, there’s so much red tape.” Well, red tape came from the Vatican. Documents were bound with red tape. That’s where that term comes from.
Bureaucracy is part of taking care of the body of Christ in a worldly sense. The Pope has to manage all of that. One of the factors that I think we have to recognize in today’s modern world, we hear much of what Pope Francis says is immediately broadcast. He says something on an airplane. He says something to somebody off the cuff. He says something at a papal audience. It all gets immediately broadcast around the world. I think that is a phenomenon that we have to pay attention to as well. Because I mean frankly, the way the church is structured, certainly the Pope is a man. He has his own opinions. I think he has a favorite soccer team in Argentina that I’m sure others disagree with.
On that human level, certainly. Every human being it’s part of being human to have your own opinions, your own likes and dislikes. I think that where it all gets confused in today’s media world, where you hear everything about what the Pope says. When the Pope, I mean, I’m sure you are familiar with the term Ex Cathedra, an authoritative speak … the Pope speaking authoritatively from Ex Cathedra, from the chair of Peter, that doesn’t happen on an airplane. There’s no cathedra on an airplane. The Pope is asked these questions by reporters and says something that is his opinion, or just his thought for the moment. I think that sometimes, especially people that are not friendly to the church, they seize onto it and say, “Oh, well this is a contradiction. Oh, well, the teachings are changing.” I think it does get confusing for people.
I would say the best way to support Pope Francis, which we must. He’s the occupant of the Petrine office in this time. We support Pope Francis with our prayers and by knowing our faith. When we hear something that sounds contrary to the faith, instead of just getting angry or getting upset, we need to keep asking questions. Did the Pope really say this, or did someone else in the bureaucracy say this? Because in my experience, there are definitely people that they work at the Vatican that I have very different ideas about what the message of Jesus Christ is, than maybe they do. They’re not the Pope. That’s where we have to be very clear. The best way, and I’ve actually tweeted this, the best way to support any Pope, including Pope Francis, is to know and live the faith, to know Jesus Christ and to live that faith as fully as we can. Because Pope Francis, like all of us, we need to constantly be looking to Christ to the face of truth, to be guided through a very confusing, very complicated and at times, very evil world that we find ourselves in.
Eric Sammons:
Now, if a Catholic finds, I’m reading actually St. John Henry Newman right now, and he talks about this some. If a Catholic finds you, he supports the Pope, he prays for him and he supports him in his prayers and by living the faith. If he finds that the Pope says something airplane, maybe even in a document or something like that, that he believes in good conscience and well-formed conscience does contradict the faith, is he allowed at that point to say, “Okay, I just think the Pope is wrong in this.”
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Well, that gets pretty sticky. I mean, I would be very careful with anyone about taking that approach. But certainly, as you referred to, and certainly the saints through the ages have talked about issues like that. Certainly theoretically, I mean, it’s not something that is impossible. That the Pope, I mean, a lot of times people talk the infallibility. That’s a very narrow, very specifically theologically structured statement that it’s not like everything the Pope says, or the vast majority of things The Pope says are Ex Cathedra infallible statements. I think that we have to make that distinction. If it is not spoken infallibly, then there’s leeway for the church to continue to understand more clearly. But, certainly as you point out with Cardinal Newman, you can be in a situation where a given Pope is saying something that people will say, that’s not how I read the catechism. That’s not what I understand it saying. We have to be very cautious there. But again, we look to Christ and you do your best to understand what is Jesus Christ saying?
Eric Sammons:
A lot of our listeners and audience here, they attend the traditional Latin Mass. They’ve come to really come, as you say, closer to Jesus Christ and to love the person Jesus Christ through the traditional Latin Mass. But of course, there’s a lot controversy for some reason, attached to it. That it’s seen as something that might be dangerous for the church, dangerous for the unity of church, something like that. What’s your views of the traditional Latin Mass and is it something that can be, something that could foster more unity, foster love for Jesus Christ and maybe even growth in the church?
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Well, really Eric, I have seen, especially young people, young families drawn into a deeper relationship with Jesus Christ. I mean, I’ve just began in the past couple of years, just beginning to get an understanding of the Latin Mass, because it wasn’t something I was exposed to in the seminary or as a young priest. But once again, Eric, I know I keep emphasizing, but Jesus Christ is what it’s all about. To me, what we have to help people do is develop a deeper relationship with Jesus Christ and the reverence that you see built in to the Latin Mass. We definitely need that in every mass. Jesus Christ is present in the Novus Ordo Mass or in the Latin Mass, in the simplest mass or the most elaborate sung mass. It’s the same Jesus Christ and that’s what I emphasize to people.
If we really believe he’s there, then we’re going to live a more reverent approach to the mass, and we’re going to encourage others to make a more reverent approach to the mass. That to me, is the best, the main thing that we need to be focused on and respecting those who following the proper instructions that come from the Vatican regarding the Latin Mass. But again, emphasizing is it bringing us closer to Christ? If my sheep are saying that it is, then I have an obligation to listen to them and to help them. Certainly, Christ is one. The greatest unity is always going to come from being in a deeper relationship with Christ. The divisions that come up, and sadly there are divisions in the church. I think the best way to get over those divisions is to really focus on Christ and remember to be reverent.
I encourage people that maybe are the FSSP has been established as an acceptable community where the Latin Mass can be celebrated. Pope Francis recently gave his seal of approval to that. I would encourage all of those people to understand both and the Novus Ordo and bring, and that’s what I’ve encouraged in our diocese. If you don’t see it enough reverence in the Novus Ordo Masses, which I’m constantly working to make sure they are reverent, because Christ is there, then help that community. Don’t just say, “Oh, I don’t like that because they’re not reverent enough.” Help each other. Be a family of faith.
Whether in the Latin Mass or the Novus Ordo, bringing everyone into a deeper relationship with Christ. To me, he’s the one that it’s his church. It’s his world. He’s the son of God. We have to keep turning to him. He’s got the clear truth. He is the truth. When it’s the liturgical questions, I mean, we’ve both lived through the liturgy wars, which are really, really tragic because there’s so much division over how you approach the Eucharistic Altar of Jesus Christ. He died that we might be one in the Father and we’re far from that, but we have to keep working toward it.
Eric Sammons:
Okay, one final question I want to ask you is you’ve already said, obviously lay people, we should pray for our bishop. What would be the number one thing besides praying for a bishop, that you would say a layperson should do to help their individual bishop that they have in their diocese?
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Grow in their own faith. If you haven’t read a lot of scripture, read some more scripture. If you haven’t spent some time praying the rosary, just do the basic Catholic things. Make sure you go to mass every Sunday, even if you don’t like father’s homily. Be a better Catholic, is the best way that you can help all the hierarchy, all the priests, all the bishops to be better Catholics themselves, more committed to Christ.
Eric Sammons:
Great. Also, before we end here, do you mind giving a blessing to the audience?
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
No, glad to.
Eric Sammons:
Great, thank you.
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Oh, Mighty God we ask your blessing for all of those listening, that it may be an opportunity to grow closer to your son, to the wonder that as he promised, he is with us sacramentally in the word, in the body of Christ, that is the church. In so many ways, the Lord is with us. We pray that Father, you may strengthen us in the light of your son and the power of your spirit and may the immaculate Virgin Mary enter seat for us constantly. In the name of the Father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit, amen.
Eric Sammons:
Amen. Thank you very much your excellency, I really appreciate it.
Bishop Joseph Strickland:
Okay. God bless.
Eric Sammons:
Take care everybody. Until next time, God love you.
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