The Jesuit journal La Civiltà Cattolica has published a transcript of a September 15 conversation between Pope Francis and members of the Society of Jesus. The conversation took place during the Pontiff’s apostolic journey to Kazakhstan.

Asked, “How do you see the geopolitical situation we are experiencing?”, he replied, “There is a war going on and I think it is a mistake to think that this is a cowboy movie where there are good guys and bad guys.”

“The victim of this conflict is Ukraine,” he continued. “A head of state, in December last year, came to tell me that he was very concerned because NATO had gone barking at the gates of Russia … He expressed fear that this would provoke a war, and this broke out two months later. So, one cannot be simplistic in reasoning about the causes of the conflict. I see imperialisms in conflict.”